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[安防设备] 有关使用.22lr 做家防的统计和分析,请大家讨论

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发表于 2017-8-16 04:35 | 只看该作者 |只看大图 回帖奖励 |正序浏览 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 Charlotte 于 2017-8-16 04:54 编辑

我是个新手,第一次买枪,就是看了很多有关.22lr 做家防的文章,所以买了一把MP15-22。不过好像这里的大侠们对.22lr不太感冒,所以贴上来讨论一下。如果实在不行我再去买一把12GA或者223。

Using the .22 for Self Defense
8:00AM FRIDAY, AUGUST 23, 2013
by Greg Ellifritz

Since my handgun stopping power study was published last month in American Handgunner Magazine, I've received several questions from readers about my data. I expected to be castigated by all the big bullet aficionados for reporting honest data about the "mouse gun" calibers. That wasn't what I received.
All the email that I got was from .22 advocates telling me that I misinterpreted my data and that the .22 is the best defensive cartridge ever invented. Really? I'm open to an honest discussion about the relative merits of carrying a .22 in certain situations, but I promise you that if I was to grab a gun right now, knowing that I would be getting into a gunfight, my .22s would be VERY low on the list.
Here's a summary of the data I reported and the heart of the controversy:
Caliber% stopped after 1 shotHow many shots to stop% that did not stop
.22 (short, long, long rifle)60%1.3831%
.25 acp49%2.235%
.32 (acp and long)72%1.5224%
.380 acp62%1.7616%
9mm Luger47%2.4513%
.38 spl55%1.8717%
.357 magnum61%1.79%
.40 S&W52%2.3613%
.45 acp51%2.0814%
The .22 required the least number of shots to stop an attacker as compared to the other cartridges. Some folks used that number to bolster their choice of the .22 as the best defensive sidearm available and criticized me when I stated that I don't believe that's true. Here is one of the emails I received:
"I am surprised that you did not accept the "fact" evident in the data that the lowly .22 is actually more effective than the high power cartridges: 9mm, 40sw and 45 acp! Your statement "those are likely psychological stops rather than physical incapacitations" is not supported by any data you offer. Rather, it appears to be a purely prejudicial statement which spoils your excellent efforts at conclusions based upon data. In fact it is very counter-intuitive. You are proposing that "mouse gun" is more intimidating than a 45 ACP so it scares more people off than the very big opening in a 45 barrel!
If you have data supporting this counterintuitive conclusion, please share. My conclusion is that you are doing a disservice by not acknowledging that average folks are much better off carrying .22's for their own personnel safety. Inaccurate shot placement of high power cartridges might just get us Joe average citizens injured during an attack."
First, let me make myself perfectly clear. Shot placement is vitally important. If you can’t hit with your chosen carry gun, pick something else. You should certainly be able to pass Gila Hayes’ five rounds, five seconds, into a five inch circle, at five yards test cold, every time you shoot. I would prefer even better performance than that.
If you can't meet that standard with one of the common service calibers and can do it with a .22, I would prefer that you carry the .22. No problem at all with that decision. But most of us don't have a physical limitation and can learn to handle a bigger caliber with a minimal amount of training.
The reader asked me to explain why I considered the .22 stops to be more likely "psychological stops" as opposed to physical incapacitations. That's easy to explain...and it doesn't have anything to do with the size of the muzzle.
There are only two mechanisms for physically incapacitating someone with a handgun. The first is a shot to the central nervous system (CNS). A bullet placed into the brain or the upper spinal cord will usually stop someone instantly. Can the .22 do that? Certainly, but I think a brain or CNS shot is less likely with the .22 than with a larger caliber.
Arguably, the .22 is more accurate and controllable than a centerfire pistol. That would make brain and CNS hits more likely (if one was aiming there). The problem is the historic lack of penetration in the .22 round. They are notorious for failing to be able to penetrate the skull. I had a doctor in my class last weekend who told me about a patient he treated who had eight .22 bullets under his scalp and none had penetrated into his brain! The patient was conscious, alert, and asking for a beer!
Most .22 rounds also lack the ability to penetrate deep enough to reach the spinal cord on a front to back shot on an average human male. It's for these reasons that I doubt the .22 stops were the result of brain or CNS hits.
The only other mechanism for physical incapacitation is through blood loss. On average, a bullet that penetrates deeper and/or makes a larger hole will create more blood loss. We already established that the .22 doesn’t penetrate very deeply and it certainly doesn’t make a big hole. That takes blood loss out of the equation.
If the .22 bullet doesn't cause CNS disruption or extensive blood loss, it won't physically incapacitate an attacker. That's why I commented that the .22 stops are likely to be more psychological in nature.
The data is what it is. I can't change that. My study showed that people were stopped with fewer shots from the .22 than with any other caliber. Does that mean the .22 is the best choice? Not necessarily. There could be other factors that caused the smaller number of shots until incapacitation...
I’m just pulling numbers out of thin air, but let’s just postulate that it takes five seconds after a person is shot for him to realize he is hit and abort the attack. The average number could be higher or lower, but it doesn't matter. It will still take a few seconds for the bad guy to process the fact that he is shot and decide it’s in his best interest to escape before being shot again (a psychological stop).
If we are dealing with psychological stops and not physical incapacitations, firing additional rounds at the attacker during this five second time frame isn't likely to influence his behavior quicker. The processing takes the time that it takes. Anything that will slow the rate of fire will reduce the number of rounds that the attacker soaks up before he aborts his attack. In other words, the small number of rounds until incapacitation could be more the result of slower firing rate than superior cartridge performance.
Is the .22 likely to have a slower firing rate? In handguns carried for defensive purposes, yes. Most .22 defensive handguns are of relatively low quality. They are extremely small and difficult to shoot quickly. Compare the rate of fire between a NAA Mini revolver in .22 and a 9mm Glock. Which do you think you could shoot faster?
The .22 rimfire round is also more prone to malfunctions than any centerfire round. A malfunction will also decrease the rate of fire. Rate of fire wasn't factored into my study and could have caused the low numbers for the .22.
Another fact that many people haven't considered is the difference between police and armed citizen gunfights. My friend Claude Werner often points out that when a criminal is involved in a gunfight with the police, the stakes are higher. The criminal knows that the cops won't stop until he's dead or in jail. That’s not true with a gunfight against an armed citizen. The armed citizen just wants a break in the fight. If he can cause the criminal to flee, he wins and stops shooting.
When criminals fight the police, they are likely to fight harder and take more rounds before giving up, because they know giving up equals a long prison sentence. Giving up and running away when fighting an armed citizen has no such negative consequences.
Many of the gunfights involving 9mm, .40, and .45 calibers in my study were police gunfights. Very few of the .22 data was from police gunfights. The very nature of the differences between the victim characteristics in the different gunfights could also account for the smaller number of rounds taken by those hit with the .22.
Here's the good news for the .22 carriers...
In Claude's lifetime study of defensive gun uses, he has yet to find a single case where an armed citizen was killed by a criminal after the criminal had taken at least one .22 round. In the case of civilian defensive gun usage, the criminal almost always flees after the first hit. I have been unable to find any gunfights that prove Claude wrong.
But take a look at the third column in the table above…
That's the statistic that most .22 advocates choose to ignore. It’s the percentage of people who were not physically incapacitated after any number of rounds. It's roughly three times higher with the .22 as compared to the service caliber cartridges.
Yes, the criminals fled, but they were not incapacitated. They could continue to fight back if they choose to. If you were to face the rare motivated criminal who presses the fight, would you want a .22 or something else? Encountering the motivated criminal who presses the fight against an armed citizen is exceedingly rare, but it is a possibility. Should you prepare for the statistical norm or the statistical anomaly? In my view, I think it’s best to prepare for the worst possible outcome, rather than the most likely. Statistically, you are unlikely to ever need a gun at all, yet most of my readers want to prepare for the worst, so they carry a gun. Why wouldn't you use the same logic when choosing an appropriate defensive sidearm?
My best advice to you is to carry a gun that is reliable and shoots well. If your preference is a .22, it will probably serve you well. My preference is to carry something a little larger whenever it's convenient.
Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.






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46#
发表于 2017-11-22 12:33 | 只看该作者
Charlotte 发表于 2017-8-17 06:38
我当初的想法就是买一把小枪老婆孩子都容易用,万一有歹徒进来,老婆关上房门,手里拿吧家伙指着房门会更 ...

我也是这么想的,我也买了15/22
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45#
发表于 2017-10-6 07:14 | 只看该作者
作为家防,遇到谋财的。22LG够用,碰到害命的,还是得大口径应对
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44#
发表于 2017-9-9 10:44 | 只看该作者
点22杀伤弹中最常见的是各大厂都出的36gr/1280fps/hp高速空尖弹。比空尖弹厉害的是cci出的Segmented hp, 遇到目标呈开花状裂成三瓣,是名副其实的"炸子",有Quiet (40gr/710fps) Subsonic (40gr/1050fps)和超高速Segmented HP(32gr/1640fps)这几种。对付沅熊亚音速hp就够用,对付卡腰踢(coyote)要用超高速弹。

只能用点22家防也可以考虑超高速弹,威力向上靠近.22mag,如1435fps/40gr这类有Cci Velocitor, Win Super X等,Remington Yellow Jacket hp(黄马甲33gr/1500fps), Cci Stinger (32gr/1640/hp)等…… Cci Segmented HP打凝胶有很大空腔,打浣熊出口大洞,打松鼠gopher四分五裂……
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n8qz3mGWETw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ANIBno8CQ
在子弹面前,人人平等!
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43#
发表于 2017-8-19 17:04 | 只看该作者
870 express tactical 12GA Home defense. .22lr, no way
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42#
发表于 2017-8-18 18:48 | 只看该作者
Jaguar 发表于 2017-8-17 22:58
22LR的可靠性到底差到什么程度,有统计数据么

我自己用着觉得点22还是挺reliable的,统计数据不知道,边缘底火inherently要比中心底火不可靠一些。 凭感觉,我觉得如果我打点22,500发一大盒出去了才一个臭子儿,我会觉得挺少见(应该更多);如果是9毫米,哪怕是毛子的Tula之类,500发里来个臭子儿,我会觉得应该更少。。。
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发表于 2017-8-17 19:58 | 只看该作者
双筒 发表于 2017-8-16 19:53
这不是个好example,以军当年拿10/22当非致命武器来用,控制骚乱驱散人群等等,专打暴徒的腿(因为巴勒斯 ...

22LR的可靠性到底差到什么程度,有统计数据么
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40#
发表于 2017-8-17 19:47 | 只看该作者
樓主引述文章說
1。22口徑很難打穿頭骨
2。22口徑動能低,殺傷力差
因此原作者說,22的制止是心理的。


那我還是用9釐米和點45。讓自己心安。也祝樓主點22不會遺憾

雷公   
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39#
发表于 2017-8-17 19:44 | 只看该作者
Charlotte 发表于 2017-8-17 09:38
我当初的想法就是买一把小枪老婆孩子都容易用,万一有歹徒进来,老婆关上房门,手里拿吧家伙指着房门会更 ...

点22的步枪用好了,可以是非常deadly的家防武器(点22的手枪有点鸡肋),尤其适合对枪重/后座等比较敏感的妇女儿童。 因为威力上的差异,点22需要射击时快速并多发命中,才能跟其他centerfire的手枪口径去类比,而点22忽略不计的后座和高乎寻常的精度就保证了这个方法是achievable。 这就要求用点22的枪时,弹匣容量要比你用中心底火的时候更大一些,而点22的手枪通常容量经常却比9毫米等手枪小。 而且边缘底火意味着你可能碰到臭弹,弹匣里的弹量更需要有冗余。 再加上点22盒子上的弹道性能都是按步枪来测定的,用手枪打会大打折扣。 所以点22的步枪做家防我觉得是可行的,只要训练到位。 但我会同时准备一把手枪,哪怕是点22的,24小时不离身。 因为步枪不可能随时随地带在身上,而突发事件会让你措手不及,手枪正是你fight your way back to your rifle的最好方法。。。
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 楼主| 发表于 2017-8-17 06:38 | 只看该作者
双筒 发表于 2017-8-16 19:53
这不是个好example,以军当年拿10/22当非致命武器来用,控制骚乱驱散人群等等,专打暴徒的腿(因为巴勒斯 ...

我当初的想法就是买一把小枪老婆孩子都容易用,万一有歹徒进来,老婆关上房门,手里拿吧家伙指着房门会更安心点。加了个激光瞄准镜和战术手电,所以不三点一线的瞄,也不担心RECOIL,权当烧火棍。
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37#
发表于 2017-8-16 23:33 | 只看该作者
TTBJ 发表于 2017-8-16 09:32
.22栓动步枪给小学生入门用,这是我觉得唯一能用到.22的地方。上周带上初三的侄女第一次摸枪,9mm的塑料/全 ...

这个太偏了,.22打些兔子之类的小东西还是很好用的。要是真是屎打扇了,.22是个很好的求生口径
何惧风吹雨打?
我有如细草漂流在海上。
再大的波浪能耐我何?
我在浪尖,或在风中!
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发表于 2017-8-16 20:43 | 只看该作者
文章中说的点22是不是点22WMR马格南而不是点22LR啊,如果是左轮手枪.22 WMR史密斯威森的话穿透力还是满强的,但也不如大口径,如果好的话点22WMR半自动手枪就不会停产你说对吧。
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35#
发表于 2017-8-16 19:53 | 只看该作者
dcx 发表于 2017-8-16 17:08
其实以军也喜欢用.22作战。

这不是个好example,以军当年拿10/22当非致命武器来用,控制骚乱驱散人群等等,专打暴徒的腿(因为巴勒斯坦的暴徒拿橡皮子弹镇不住)。 他们觉得这点22的小子弹,也就能打个老鼠什么的(跟这主题里有些跟帖说的差不多呵呵),又只打腿,能有多大危险?比橡皮子弹管用又打不死人,多好。 后来发现不行,这“非致命”武器的致命效果怎么那么好,不得不叫停了。。。

当年史外甥第一把左轮枪,model 1在1857年上市后,南北战争中双方的士兵都是争先恐后的买这个枪来自卫。 那可是点22 Short的口径,比点22LR还差一个档次呢,人家用在战争中用来杀人。 所以点22LR光从威力上来说,杀个人是绰绰有余(这里不是说的打一枪过一礼拜才死,是立仆)。 别说杀人,油土鳖上点22LR一枪放倒400磅大野猪的视频都有好些呢。 跟9毫米以上的中心底火口径来比,威力是小,但如果你只需要100块钱,给你两百还是两千都是一样意义,虽然两者差10倍。 点22用来自卫有自己的优势,也有劣势,要知道怎么用(每个工具其实都得知道怎么用才能用好嘛),扬长避短,否则倒过来当然是自取灭亡,然后还赖这口径不给力,点22说我也太冤了吧。。。
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34#
发表于 2017-8-16 19:22 | 只看该作者
chevoodoo 发表于 2017-8-16 14:55
讲真.22威力偏小了,动静也不够大,对入侵者威慑力不够,一听这个声音,入侵者还以为是女性,本来只想是劫 ...

   .22 就是要搞事情,刺杀专用么
When You're Up To Your Nose In Shit, Keep Your Mouth Shut. -Jack Beauregard
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33#
发表于 2017-8-16 15:54 | 只看该作者
z_g_yang 发表于 2017-8-16 14:19
城市里还挺好用的,距离近,能打中要害,一样致命。 加消音器后很难找到来源。
不过这个和家防完全是不同 ...

那是。要不然他挂把AR干嘛。
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32#
发表于 2017-8-16 14:23 | 只看该作者
如果有枪枪爆头的技术的话,包括对移动中的目标也能做到枪枪爆头,那么楼主你使用.22LR足够了。
如果不能的话,还是挑选一把停止作用好的枪吧。
根据每个人身体状况所挑选的枪也会不一样。
你尽自己最大能力能够控制得住的最大威力的枪就是它了。
是可以控制得住的!
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31#
发表于 2017-8-16 14:19 | 只看该作者
dcx 发表于 2017-8-16 14:08
其实以军也喜欢用.22作战。

城市里还挺好用的,距离近,能打中要害,一样致命。 加消音器后很难找到来源。
不过这个和家防完全是不同的应用场景。
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发表于 2017-8-16 14:08 | 只看该作者
其实以军也喜欢用.22作战。
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29#
发表于 2017-8-16 13:23 | 只看该作者
前几年猴子屯出了一桩命案,猴子屯大学的一位中国留学生,还是学生会的头头,跟一帮人到中国城吃饭,中间出去接一个电话。遇到几个老莫要枪他手机他不给,被老墨用点22手枪打死了
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28#
发表于 2017-8-16 12:11 | 只看该作者
还有前一段哪个州mall里面枪击案。凶手用1022打死了5个人。

当然这个只能说明.22的致命性。并不能说明停止作用。
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