大家对这个杀狮子的牙医怎么看？

Commissar

rc256 发表于 2015-7-29 09:43
Just technical question, assuming if they had a legal permit in the area and baiting is legal, wou ...

I don't know about a collared animal. But it doe look like baiting is a common practice. The most condemning evidence so far is his outfitters were not allocated a lion in their quota. Palmer can argue he wasn't aware of that. Given he paid $50000, it is likely his outfitters who are natives of Zimbabuwe were greedy for the filthy lucre. The question is whether there is a certificate for the lion quota, just like the deer tags. An ethical hunter ought to demand to see it.  

brucewayne

这狮子一头的毛要说能看到项圈，夸张了吧

http://www.theguardian.com/world ... set-hunter-zimbabwe

rc256

Commissar 发表于 2015-7-29 11:56
I don't know about a collared animal. But it doe look like baiting is a common practice. The most  ...

That's a lesson to learn. Important to demand written documentation and certificate before expensive and controversy hunt.

Hohenstaufenz

Commissar 发表于 2015-7-29 09:37
I doubt he's lost his business. Social media are known to have a very short attention span. It is  ...

Sadly it's true. Social media has the attention span of a gold fish. However, I'm not sure whether the Board will allow him to retain his medical license if he were charged and found guilty for the violation of international laws. A man as rich as him could still bankrupt himself in a course of extended legal troubles. We will see. A hunter who holds no moral regards to local/international laws and ethical standards will cause tremendous collateral damage to the sustainable hunting conservation programs over there. People who sympathize him may find it hard at first, but to keep those conservation hunting programs alive and profitable for the local community, any form of poaching activity has to be stopped and punished with the help of international effort. One bad apple like this fucker could potentially ruin the reputation of those programs in the eyes of the public.

michaelliu

尼玛狮子也打，偷猎者该杀

rc256

This is a reply from a SA outfitter:

If you have a farm or a concession block or you have the hunting rights on paper from someone who ownes a farm or concession block bordering a National park and you have a permit issued to hunt a Lion on the said farm or concession. The hunt is legal. If you shoot a Lion with a color around its neck and there is no agreement not to shoot such a Lion the hunt is legal.
If your permit allows you to bait the animal the hunt is legal. If your permit allows you to use a spotlight the hunt is legal.

It all depends what the coditions of the hunt is and that is usually printed on the back of the permit.

I am referring to South Africa and Limpopo in particular.

alex

brucewayne 发表于 2015-7-29 10:00
这狮子一头的毛要说能看到项圈，夸张了吧

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/28/walter-palmer-d ...

需要大圣那种。。。。

Qiujhy521

综合来看，更倾向于牙医被坑了。五万刀不是小数，印象中应该够他可以合法狩猎了吧？请知道行情的枪友给普及下非洲行猎的价格。

rc256

Qiujhy521 发表于 2015-7-29 14:06
综合来看，更倾向于牙医被坑了。五万刀不是小数，印象中应该够他可以合法狩猎了吧？请知道行情的枪友给普及 ...

$50k price is normal for a chance to hunt free ranging (wild) lion. Method usually include 10 days of baiting. I tend to think the dentist is being conned by greedy guide and land owner. I don't see incentive for the dentist to  take such risky adventure if he knew he was targeting Cecil, the popular big cat.
Basic economics would dictate the illegal poaching price should be less than the legal/restricted market price. If you can hunt a legal lion for $50k, why you pay the same money to hunt illegal one?

For fenced lion hunt, normal price is bettween $15k to $30k.

frys

rc256 发表于 2015-7-29 12:16
$50k price is normal for a chance to hunt free ranging (wild) lion. Method usually include 10 days ...

我就觉得没这么贵嘛。现场看过一个safari auction。lion的winning bid才两万块。他这个5万多不便宜了。

Qiujhy521

rc256 发表于 2015-7-29 12:16
$50k price is normal for a chance to hunt free ranging (wild) lion. Method usually include 10 days ...

这就比较清楚了，谢谢回复。如果当地狩猎管理上不是那么的规范的话，顾客被坑的可能性更大。

brucewayne

rc256 发表于 2015-7-29 15:16
$50k price is normal for a chance to hunt free ranging (wild) lion. Method usually include 10 days ...

智商能念到牙医的人会傻到去偷猎吗，为了头狮子抛弃身家性命 我完全同意你的看法

Snowbird

此人历史纪录非常不好，曾经偷猎黑熊（在威斯康星州）并被定罪，我觉得他一点都不无辜。

jerseyv

Everyone is innocent till proven guilty, including the dentist.

oldben

“2006年，他在美國威斯康星州西部一處合法狩獵區外射殺一頭黑熊。帕爾默隨後將黑熊的尸體拖到合法狩獵區內，向野生動物管理部門謊稱自己在那里將其擊斃。兩年後，他就此事認罪，獲判一年緩刑並被罰款2938美元。”
http://news.sina.com.hk/news/20150730/-12-3963740/1.html

干这种事的人，一般人都无法相信他这次不是故伎重演。

bmracer

让姚明再拍一个没有买卖就没有杀害 trophy hunting版好了

cjw065

brucewayne 发表于 2015-7-29 10:00
这狮子一头的毛要说能看到项圈，夸张了吧

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/28/walter-palmer-d ...

这个和我想的一样， 很多人说这人离那么近怎么会看不到， 我觉得不走到狮子旁边扒开毛，你是看不到项圈的。
很多人的愤怒来源于被射杀的狮子是一个很有名的狮子，如果换了一个不出名的狮子恐怕也没这么多事儿。我认为牙医根本就不知道他杀了一头名师。
网络暴民也很可怕，有人定罪有人悬赏有人发死亡威胁。偶尔看到一两个说点头脑清醒的话就被痛骂。
总而言之，此人也许有罪，也许是被欺骗，但事实搞清之前就往死里整，体现的就是典型的liberal 的虚伪。

Hohenstaufenz

此人也许有罪，也许是被欺骗， 也许是故意让自己被人欺骗，who knows? 这在法律眼中都不如事实证据更为有力。各位拥枪者都应该心里清楚，we take responsibility for the shots we make. 一旦你扣动了扳机，那么你我就要为那颗子弹而负责，不管是在自卫中误杀他人，还是在打猎中误杀受保护的动物，或许是枪支走火而造成他人的财产损失。Palmer 此案关键要点在于他的行为是否构成偷猎。那咱们来瞧瞧：1）他的狩猎团队在当时、当地是否拥有合法的猎狮permit? 2）当事人此前是否有偷猎的前科？3）此人作为此次狩猎的客户也是employer, 有无责任在狩猎之前确保各类法律文件的合法性和时效性，并且了解狩猎区域是否存在lion quota？

至于一些朋友感觉”不走到狮子旁边扒开毛，你是看不到项圈的“ 那给狮子剥皮砍头的时候也不会错过，除非是有意摧毁证据并在法庭上撒谎，而谎造现场、摧毁证据之事已经不是Palmer 第一次这么干了。不管他杀的是不是一个国家的national icon, 只要他无证猎狮，就已经构成偷猎，除非是Palmer 可以证明自己被这头狮子跟踪尾随几十公里，在不得已的情况下自卫还击才将其杀死。Sound ridiculous? I bet some people will jump on that wagon without hesitation. 先不提他的这一颗子弹给津巴布韦的eco-tourism 带来了多大的打击，也不提他的偷猎行为使得原本合法的狩猎保护项目受到多少不必要的国际压力，他涉嫌偷猎就应该为自己的行为而负责。否则还要法律干什么？

你我可以控诉网络暴民的街头正义，正如在Michael Brown 案件中那样，但此案与上回受到全国媒体采访的猎犀牛的哥们所不同的是：Palmer 从他bating 的路线选择到其”误杀“狮子以后逃回国内并在被曝光之前选择沉默，都从很多角度反映了他犯罪的动机和行为；而德州猎犀牛的Mr. Kownlton 走的是合法程序，从法律角度和环保角度来看都无可非议。这就好比是你路上撞了人，不管是不是你的责任，一旦你逃离现场，那么你就不要再指望自己在法律的眼中是innocent了。

I am a liberal in some social issues and I am proud of it. I love guns and nature, and I believe they could co-exist within the current framework of laws. I support hunting both as a tradition and an alternative to facilitate conservation. However, I hold no respect to people who don't respect the laws, or even worse, ones who knowingly exploit laws to further their personal greed, be it Wall Street suckers or poachers like this Walter Palmer.

longlive

Hohenstaufenz 发表于 2015-7-30 03:20
此人也许有罪，也许是被欺骗， 也许是故意让自己被人欺骗，who knows? 这在法律眼中都不如事实证据更为有力 ...

我所考虑的并不是这个人有罪没罪，我也认为他有很大程度的过犯甚至犯罪。

我所担忧的是现在这种cyber bully的普遍性。当网上的这些人觉得他们占据道德制高点的时候，他们觉得自己在网络上可以为所欲为。即使是罪犯，所受到的惩罚也应该与他的罪行相等。而网上的这些人，他们的目的其实并不是通过法律手段惩罚犯罪，而是通过网上造势，摧毁一个他们认为是罪犯的人的人生，家庭，事业。

有那么多的杀人犯，比如康州的那几个强奸杀人放火的罪犯，有人在网上发起这样的攻击么？为了一头狮子的不平来出头，有人在网上为每年那么多胎死腹中的婴儿这么兴奋么？

大多数网上这种群起而攻之的对象都是有家有口有工作的人，没有人去攻击那些罪犯和罪犯的家属。他们大多是普通人又不是政客，就算他们犯了错对我们大多数人又有什么影响呢？他们接受他们应得的惩罚就够了，非要把他们打倒后搞得臭名昭著？

相反，那些真正的罪犯，倒是很多人不停的为他们开脱减刑，说他们也是环境影响不得不变坏，应该再给他们机会让他们重新做人。

其实根本原因就是嫉妒。罪犯没人去嫉妒，然后认为有钱人就应该死，有钱人就是为富不仁。

不要忘了，我们可能也是别人嫉妒的对象，当心有一天我们也有可能成为cyber bully 的对象。这个是非理性的，你不能通过讲道理使自己脱身，我们所仰仗的只有健全的法律系统。如果有一天法律系统也被非理性的民意所左右，那我们作为少数，不管是作为华裔还是拥枪，我们只能自求多福了。

cjw065

Hohenstaufenz 发表于 2015-7-30 00:20
此人也许有罪，也许是被欺骗， 也许是故意让自己被人欺骗，who knows? 这在法律眼中都不如事实证据更为有力 ...

我说 “”不走到狮子旁边扒开毛，你是看不到项圈的“ 是因为很多人网上攻击此人是说如此近距离射杀， 射之前就能看见项圈，认为他故意射杀有项圈的狮子。 这个和很多人认为警察射杀罪犯的时候应该打手打胳膊一样，纯属意淫。
至于他之后看到项圈后干了什么，我不知道，你也不知道，你所知道的也是网上新闻里看到的，不用费心思瞎猜。